## Frame sizing problems, Part I: Beware of T-shirt nomenclature

Written by: Dan Empfield

Date: Sun Jan 27 2008

Whatever happened to the bike size? We old timers remember when, if you rode a 56 centimeter bike, another model you were contemplating in that same size would fit about the same way. It also meant that if you held your measuring tape up to the bike's seat tube -- lo! -- it terminated 56 centimeters above the bottom bracket.

One of the measuring conventions back then was center-to-center, which meant you measured from the center of the bottom bracket to the

If you own a tri bike I charge you with this task: hold a tape up to it and find any two landmarks of note that actually measure the amount corresponding to its named numerical size.

It won't so-measure, and I'm as much to blame as anyone for this. When I was making tri bikes 20 years ago we decided to drop the top tube, and run it horizontal to the ground. We extended the seat tube up to its usual place: for looks; and to provide our customers with a place to which to measure (the black bike in the pic above is an example of a model like that built by QR about a dozen years ago, with an embarrassing number of headset spacers). By-and-by we just said screw it, and cut the seat mast off just above the top tube intersection. How did we then describe the bikes' sizes? We kept the "size" the same, even though we had no tube up there anymore.

"Center-to-air," we'd answer when asked how we measured. We sized our bikes from the bottom bracket to where your top tube

Which brings us to now.

The problem of sizing is acute in the world of tri bikes. Any system of sizing would be okay with me, if it was uniform. I'll use T-shirt sizes as an example of how munged-up things are, but I've got to use a precise and repeatable method of actually measuring a bike to demonstrate the current state of affairs.

One of the measuring conventions back then was center-to-center, which meant you measured from the center of the bottom bracket to the

*center*of the intersection between the seat and top tubes. The other standard was center-to-top (BB to the*top*of the seat tube).If you own a tri bike I charge you with this task: hold a tape up to it and find any two landmarks of note that actually measure the amount corresponding to its named numerical size.

It won't so-measure, and I'm as much to blame as anyone for this. When I was making tri bikes 20 years ago we decided to drop the top tube, and run it horizontal to the ground. We extended the seat tube up to its usual place: for looks; and to provide our customers with a place to which to measure (the black bike in the pic above is an example of a model like that built by QR about a dozen years ago, with an embarrassing number of headset spacers). By-and-by we just said screw it, and cut the seat mast off just above the top tube intersection. How did we then describe the bikes' sizes? We kept the "size" the same, even though we had no tube up there anymore.

"Center-to-air," we'd answer when asked how we measured. We sized our bikes from the bottom bracket to where your top tube

*would*be if you were on a road race bike that fit the same way. Was that disingenuous? Cynical? Demeaning? Heck, I don't know. What I do know is that it caused us few-to-no problems. Can you imagine how much time it would've taken to explain that last year's 57cm QR Kilo fits exactly the same as this year's 52cm Kilo?Which brings us to now.

The problem of sizing is acute in the world of tri bikes. Any system of sizing would be okay with me, if it was uniform. I'll use T-shirt sizes as an example of how munged-up things are, but I've got to use a precise and repeatable method of actually measuring a bike to demonstrate the current state of affairs.

One such measuring standard is that which I use for our F.I.S.T. Tri Bike Fit system, and that standard is called "stack & reach." Simply put, I'm measuring between the two points on a frame you'll contact: the bottom bracket and the head tube top. "Stack" is the distance between these two points on the Y axis, that is, if you draw horizontal lines between the BB and the head tube's terminal height, the distance between these two lines is "stack." The difference in length between these two points along the X axis is "reach."

Stack & reach tell you everything you need to know about a bike's height and length. This leaves out a lot of very valuable geometric information, but most all that other stuff relates to how the bike will handle.

With this as a backdrop, let us examine some frame sizes.

Let's start with the Scott Plasma, in size M. It's got a stack of 52.7cm, that is, it's got its head tube top exactly that number of centimeters above the bottom bracket in the vertical plane. Is this a reasonable height for a tri bike in size M? Maybe so. But the new Specialized Transition S-Works has a stack of 52.6cm in its size L. These are pretty much identically sized bikes, in terms of height.

Certainly the Plasma must be shorter in length, so as to justify its smaller size designation. Its reach in 40.4cm. The Specialized? Its reach in size L is 40.5cm. If you think the Scott Plasma in M is smaller than the Specialized Transition in L just because one's M and one's L, think again. These are identical bikes, when it comes to their (handlebar) height and (cockpit) length. The only difference in the fit of these two bikes may be in one's ability to position the saddle differently (more forward or rearward, or higher or lower) versus the bottom bracket.

Does this continue throughout the T-shirt size ranges? Yep, it does, to a degree.

The Scott Plasma, size S, has a stack and reach of 51.5cm and 39.2cm, while the Specialized Transition in size M has a stack and reach of 51.6cm and 39.5cm.

Which bike company has it right? Hard to tell. Giant's Trinity Alliance in its size S has a stack of 51.7cm, which is pretty closely in line with the Plasma's size S. But the Giant's reach is 41.0cm, which is even longer than the Scott's Medium and the Transition's size L.

Does this mean the Giant's size S is way too long for a bike of that size? Maybe, but don't tell that to Argon18. Its E-112 and E-114 in size S has a reach about the same (41.1cm) as Giant's S. But that bike's stack is 49.5cm, and that's lower to the ground than Giant's size XS.

Trek's Equinox TTX is a bit shorter in length in its size S, with a reach of 39.0cm. That's the same reach as the Kuota Kueen K in size XS. But Trek's stack for that size S is 52.0cm, and that's the same as Elite's stack in size M, and halfway between the Specialized Transition's M and L.

Scott's Plasma jumps in height by a centimeter in going from XS to S, by a centimeter-and-a-quarter from S to M, then by two centimeters from M to L. it's XL is

Trek's Equinox TTX jumps just

Meanwhile, the tri bikes by Specialized differ in height by only 2.2cm throughout its

Jamis new Xenith, in size M, is same length as Kuota's K Factor in size L, which places it between Blue's ML and its L, and halfway between Argon18's Mercury in M and its E-114 in M. But in height it's lower than the K Factor's S, and it's lower than Trek's S too.

Imagine if, upon going shopping at the mall, S meant a neck of 15 inches and a sleeve of 32 inches, but in another brand the neck was 13 inches and the sleeve was 35 inches. You might wonder why these companies don't use numeric designations, so that they can add some accuracy to their size designations. Surely a 56cm Cervelo must be akin in size to a 56cm QR or Felt or Kestrel. Think again. That's coming in Part II.

Stack & reach tell you everything you need to know about a bike's height and length. This leaves out a lot of very valuable geometric information, but most all that other stuff relates to how the bike will handle.

With this as a backdrop, let us examine some frame sizes.

Let's start with the Scott Plasma, in size M. It's got a stack of 52.7cm, that is, it's got its head tube top exactly that number of centimeters above the bottom bracket in the vertical plane. Is this a reasonable height for a tri bike in size M? Maybe so. But the new Specialized Transition S-Works has a stack of 52.6cm in its size L. These are pretty much identically sized bikes, in terms of height.

Certainly the Plasma must be shorter in length, so as to justify its smaller size designation. Its reach in 40.4cm. The Specialized? Its reach in size L is 40.5cm. If you think the Scott Plasma in M is smaller than the Specialized Transition in L just because one's M and one's L, think again. These are identical bikes, when it comes to their (handlebar) height and (cockpit) length. The only difference in the fit of these two bikes may be in one's ability to position the saddle differently (more forward or rearward, or higher or lower) versus the bottom bracket.

Does this continue throughout the T-shirt size ranges? Yep, it does, to a degree.

The Scott Plasma, size S, has a stack and reach of 51.5cm and 39.2cm, while the Specialized Transition in size M has a stack and reach of 51.6cm and 39.5cm.

Which bike company has it right? Hard to tell. Giant's Trinity Alliance in its size S has a stack of 51.7cm, which is pretty closely in line with the Plasma's size S. But the Giant's reach is 41.0cm, which is even longer than the Scott's Medium and the Transition's size L.

Does this mean the Giant's size S is way too long for a bike of that size? Maybe, but don't tell that to Argon18. Its E-112 and E-114 in size S has a reach about the same (41.1cm) as Giant's S. But that bike's stack is 49.5cm, and that's lower to the ground than Giant's size XS.

Trek's Equinox TTX is a bit shorter in length in its size S, with a reach of 39.0cm. That's the same reach as the Kuota Kueen K in size XS. But Trek's stack for that size S is 52.0cm, and that's the same as Elite's stack in size M, and halfway between the Specialized Transition's M and L.

Scott's Plasma jumps in height by a centimeter in going from XS to S, by a centimeter-and-a-quarter from S to M, then by two centimeters from M to L. it's XL is

*three-and-a-quarter*centimeters taller than its L.Trek's Equinox TTX jumps just

*one centimeter*in height between its S and M, then by almost*4 centimeters*between the M and L.Meanwhile, the tri bikes by Specialized differ in height by only 2.2cm throughout its

*entire*4-bike size range of S to XL. Indeed, the S Works XL is the same height as the Scott Plasma in M, and it's only 7 millimeters taller than Trek's size S.Jamis new Xenith, in size M, is same length as Kuota's K Factor in size L, which places it between Blue's ML and its L, and halfway between Argon18's Mercury in M and its E-114 in M. But in height it's lower than the K Factor's S, and it's lower than Trek's S too.

Imagine if, upon going shopping at the mall, S meant a neck of 15 inches and a sleeve of 32 inches, but in another brand the neck was 13 inches and the sleeve was 35 inches. You might wonder why these companies don't use numeric designations, so that they can add some accuracy to their size designations. Surely a 56cm Cervelo must be akin in size to a 56cm QR or Felt or Kestrel. Think again. That's coming in Part II.

Articles related to this one
Frame sizing problems, Part II: Let's look at the numbers

Are numerical sizing schemes more accurate than T-shirt sizes? Yes, but only marginally. 2.04.08

Frame sizing problems, Part II: Let's look at the numbers

Are numerical sizing schemes more accurate than T-shirt sizes? Yes, but only marginally. 2.04.08

Are numerical sizing schemes more accurate than T-shirt sizes? Yes, but only marginally. 2.04.08

Are numerical sizing schemes more accurate than T-shirt sizes? Yes, but only marginally. 2.04.08

Stack & Reach Primer: Chapter One

Earlier in the decade I wrote an article on how bikes are sized, and the gist was that we ought to be looking at bikes from the point of view of head tubes and top tubes, and that's it. -- no more seat tube sizing. 2.19.03

Earlier in the decade I wrote an article on how bikes are sized, and the gist was that we ought to be looking at bikes from the point of view of head tubes and top tubes, and that's it. -- no more seat tube sizing. 2.19.03

Stack & Reach Primer: Chapter Two

Our primer on stack & reach continues with the second chapter in the series. We examine how stack and reach enable you to understand how a given bike will, or will not, fit you. 2.19.03

Our primer on stack & reach continues with the second chapter in the series. We examine how stack and reach enable you to understand how a given bike will, or will not, fit you. 2.19.03

Stack & Reach Primer: Chapter Three

In the final chapter of our stack and reach primer, we compare stack and reach with other ways of remaking sizing nomenclature. 2.19.03

In the final chapter of our stack and reach primer, we compare stack and reach with other ways of remaking sizing nomenclature. 2.19.03

### Comments

#### caveat emptor....

##### Orbea stack and reach??

Reviewed by: Mark, Feb 2 2008 1:38PM

Your article seems to have done it's job... I was just about to push the button on a 54 Ordu. After reading the article I would really like to know the stack and reach of the new Ordu but can't find it anywhere. Will post the question on the forum. Will you be covering Orbea in Part II of the article???

#### Well, but....

Reviewed by: Macho Grande, Jan 31 2008 10:29AM

Dan, I thin this is great, but even though folks like Cervelo and Trek are listing the Stack and Reach there is still some disagreement.

For example, I am trying to figure out what size P3C I would ride given my current P2C Rear Seat hole position. On thier website, Cervelo tells me to pay attention to the effective toptube stating "Bottom line: use the toptube lengths from the tables below and the frame will fit you exactly as expected. Don't get confused by people trying to make this more difficult than it is."

So, while some folks are listing stack and reach, they also offer up a, perhaps, oversimplified fit guide.

For example, I am trying to figure out what size P3C I would ride given my current P2C Rear Seat hole position. On thier website, Cervelo tells me to pay attention to the effective toptube stating "Bottom line: use the toptube lengths from the tables below and the frame will fit you exactly as expected. Don't get confused by people trying to make this more difficult than it is."

So, while some folks are listing stack and reach, they also offer up a, perhaps, oversimplified fit guide.

#### Finally!

##### A favorite topic of mine on a reputable, credible

Reviewed by: Matt, Jan 28 2008 2:53PM

Thanks for your nod to this topic, Dan. So commonly, riders(and many bike shop employees) assume that sizing of frames is standardized - to their own detriment. The Stack and Reach method is a great way to clarify things - and works very well in the made-to-measure realm.

#### Stack and reach

##### PrinceofClydes

Reviewed by: Geoff White, Jan 28 2008 11:03AM

I feel much better informed now about the terminology of frame sizing and the necessary and relevant measurements with which to compare frames from different manufacturers - thanks for the essay.

I have a new P2SL frame 58cm with a stack of 550 and a reach of 440 (according to the chart on Cervelo's website)

Your explanation makes sense and I hope the world's bike mfrs (that's "manufacturers," not the other! :D) soon get into line so a uniform code of product description can emerge.

I have a new P2SL frame 58cm with a stack of 550 and a reach of 440 (according to the chart on Cervelo's website)

Your explanation makes sense and I hope the world's bike mfrs (that's "manufacturers," not the other! :D) soon get into line so a uniform code of product description can emerge.

#### Stack & Reach the new metric

##### Slowman

Reviewed by: slowman, Jan 28 2008 9:06AM

I don't know if it's the new metric or not. That's the industry's choice. I notice that Specialized is including the metric, but they haven't adopted my nomenclature. Instead of REACH it's "BB to top of Head-Tube, Horizontal." That's pretty cumbersome. I think stack and reach are good ways to measure, but I don't know if the industry's ready for two numbers. Then again, crank gearing is two numbers (and actually two numbers pretty similar to stack and reach numbers).